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	<title>Comments on: When do 92,000 documents trump an off-the-record dinner? A few more thoughts about Wikileaks</title>
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	<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/</link>
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		<title>By: Is WikiLeaks a news site? &#171; Meet Press</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-146556</link>
		<dc:creator>Is WikiLeaks a news site? &#171; Meet Press</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 18:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-146556</guid>
		<description>[...] this case, WikiLeaks is a news outlet, but the kind that we have never seen before. C.W. Anderson, writing on the Nieman Lab website, agreed that WikiLeaks blends a little of the old in journalism with the new that Rosen and Poynter [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this case, WikiLeaks is a news outlet, but the kind that we have never seen before. C.W. Anderson, writing on the Nieman Lab website, agreed that WikiLeaks blends a little of the old in journalism with the new that Rosen and Poynter [...]</p>
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		<title>By: 66</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-144641</link>
		<dc:creator>66</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 13:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-144641</guid>
		<description>If you have enough on enough people you won&#039;t have opposition to your policies.  The policies might be bad, so you need insurance that pays off.  That trumps insurance that refuses to pay off, even for war veterans.  The executives want to make more.  We are going to have a private dinner in Washington D.C. and see who eats what.  Just desserts will be on-the-record and we&#039;ll play records after the dinner and dance.  Wikileaks is dancing with death.  Can I have this dance for the rest of your life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you have enough on enough people you won&#8217;t have opposition to your policies.  The policies might be bad, so you need insurance that pays off.  That trumps insurance that refuses to pay off, even for war veterans.  The executives want to make more.  We are going to have a private dinner in Washington D.C. and see who eats what.  Just desserts will be on-the-record and we&#8217;ll play records after the dinner and dance.  Wikileaks is dancing with death.  Can I have this dance for the rest of your life?</p>
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		<title>By: Good reads from the last week &#171; rasmuskleisnielsen.net</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-144035</link>
		<dc:creator>Good reads from the last week &#171; rasmuskleisnielsen.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 17:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-144035</guid>
		<description>[...] meta)&#8230; but look, the conversation continues. A couple of old links worth revisting here, here, and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] meta)&#8230; but look, the conversation continues. A couple of old links worth revisting here, here, and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Battles</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-143331</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Battles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 22:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-143331</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been struck by the commentary of former embeds who&#039;ve combed through the docs for reports of actions they had reported out firsthand. &quot;It didn&#039;t really happen this way,&quot; they say--implying that the docs are less valuable than their embedded reporting. But it&#039;s precisely the difference that makes this stuff so valuable. Datajournalism needs to report these discrepancies--they comprise the relief map of the information ecology of the war. Even as far back as Lippmann, it&#039;s been known that the way intel gets from the front to the brass has an impact on how wars get prosecuted; storytelling *is* the story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been struck by the commentary of former embeds who&#8217;ve combed through the docs for reports of actions they had reported out firsthand. &#8220;It didn&#8217;t really happen this way,&#8221; they say&#8211;implying that the docs are less valuable than their embedded reporting. But it&#8217;s precisely the difference that makes this stuff so valuable. Datajournalism needs to report these discrepancies&#8211;they comprise the relief map of the information ecology of the war. Even as far back as Lippmann, it&#8217;s been known that the way intel gets from the front to the brass has an impact on how wars get prosecuted; storytelling *is* the story.</p>
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		<title>By: WikiLeaks and continuity: What if we had a news outlet exclusively focused on follow-up journalism? » Nieman Journalism Lab</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-143271</link>
		<dc:creator>WikiLeaks and continuity: What if we had a news outlet exclusively focused on follow-up journalism? » Nieman Journalism Lab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-143271</guid>
		<description>[...] They often lack incentive to, say, localize a story like the War Logs for their readers. Or to contextualize it. Or to, in general, continue its existence. An independent outlet &#8212; and, hey, this being a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] They often lack incentive to, say, localize a story like the War Logs for their readers. Or to contextualize it. Or to, in general, continue its existence. An independent outlet &#8212; and, hey, this being a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: This Week in Review: WikiLeaks&#8217; new journalism order, a paywall&#8217;s purpose, and a future for Flipboard » Nieman Journalism Lab</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-143220</link>
		<dc:creator>This Week in Review: WikiLeaks&#8217; new journalism order, a paywall&#8217;s purpose, and a future for Flipboard » Nieman Journalism Lab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-143220</guid>
		<description>[...] but if you&#8217;re pressed for time, the essential reads on the situation are Steve Myers, C.W. Anderson, Clint Hendler, and Janine Wedel and Linda [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] but if you&#8217;re pressed for time, the essential reads on the situation are Steve Myers, C.W. Anderson, Clint Hendler, and Janine Wedel and Linda [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mthomps</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-142709</link>
		<dc:creator>Mthomps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-142709</guid>
		<description>Cf. &lt;a href=&quot;http://snarkmarket.com/2006/1260&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The press&#039; new paradigm&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gladwell.com/2007/2007_01_08_a_secrets.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Enron, intelligence, and the perils of too much information&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cf. <a href="http://snarkmarket.com/2006/1260" rel="nofollow">The press&#8217; new paradigm</a> and <a href="http://www.gladwell.com/2007/2007_01_08_a_secrets.html" rel="nofollow">Enron, intelligence, and the perils of too much information</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: dkreiss</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-142651</link>
		<dc:creator>dkreiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-142651</guid>
		<description>I love the Hayles reference.  One thing that struck me when reading your post was just how much interpretation goes into finding those &#039;patterns&#039;.  Those 92,000 documents, I think, are a story of how to conjure up some sort of presence (of what, exactly?  a war gone wrong?) from a mass of data (not unlike what people of our ilk do with those huge social science data sets.)

What I worry about is that somehow the work of this interpretation gets obscured by debates over the quality of the information and what is or is not &#039;revealed&#039; in some objective sense: &quot;this is all they get?&quot;

But my broader concern -- and I think that Shirky starts to go here -- is with another role for journalists: as custodians of debates over moral and social values.  What is meaningful in data (what we &#039;find&#039; there) can only understood against what we believe are matters of concern; what, in essence, we are looking for answers for.  And, in that sense, we need to start from that premise to think about what those Wikileaks document mean.

And, what is interesting is that there are lots of value judgments going on here, but with no clearly formed debate and with little in the way of clarifying choices.  What is at issue, exactly?  For Wikileaks, it appears to be the immorality of the war in Afghanistan, on its face.  For some Democratic Senators, it is about the tradeoffs between nation building at home versus abroad.  For the Times, it seemed more about a bad ally and official views being at odds with what ground operatives see.

All of which is a rambling way to say, Wikileaks is only significant against a larger backdrop of public debate over the values at stake with this war.  Yet, it is that public debate -- not the quality of information on the ground -- that seems to be the most incoherent and the place where professional journalism (and information activists such as Wikileaks) seems most lacking.  I think it is only by fully embracing their interpretative role that journalists can actively create that public debate over what to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the Hayles reference.  One thing that struck me when reading your post was just how much interpretation goes into finding those &#8216;patterns&#8217;.  Those 92,000 documents, I think, are a story of how to conjure up some sort of presence (of what, exactly?  a war gone wrong?) from a mass of data (not unlike what people of our ilk do with those huge social science data sets.)</p>
<p>What I worry about is that somehow the work of this interpretation gets obscured by debates over the quality of the information and what is or is not &#8216;revealed&#8217; in some objective sense: &#8220;this is all they get?&#8221;</p>
<p>But my broader concern &#8212; and I think that Shirky starts to go here &#8212; is with another role for journalists: as custodians of debates over moral and social values.  What is meaningful in data (what we &#8216;find&#8217; there) can only understood against what we believe are matters of concern; what, in essence, we are looking for answers for.  And, in that sense, we need to start from that premise to think about what those Wikileaks document mean.</p>
<p>And, what is interesting is that there are lots of value judgments going on here, but with no clearly formed debate and with little in the way of clarifying choices.  What is at issue, exactly?  For Wikileaks, it appears to be the immorality of the war in Afghanistan, on its face.  For some Democratic Senators, it is about the tradeoffs between nation building at home versus abroad.  For the Times, it seemed more about a bad ally and official views being at odds with what ground operatives see.</p>
<p>All of which is a rambling way to say, Wikileaks is only significant against a larger backdrop of public debate over the values at stake with this war.  Yet, it is that public debate &#8212; not the quality of information on the ground &#8212; that seems to be the most incoherent and the place where professional journalism (and information activists such as Wikileaks) seems most lacking.  I think it is only by fully embracing their interpretative role that journalists can actively create that public debate over what to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Wikileaks puede cambiar las reglas de juego &#8212; Sicrono</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-142515</link>
		<dc:creator>Wikileaks puede cambiar las reglas de juego &#8212; Sicrono</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-142515</guid>
		<description>[...] sobre Afganistán. Hasta Obama salio a dar explicaciones. Las organizaciones actuales de los medios de comunicación no podrían lograr semejante contundencia de pruebas. Me pregunto, los medios tradicionales: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] sobre Afganistán. Hasta Obama salio a dar explicaciones. Las organizaciones actuales de los medios de comunicación no podrían lograr semejante contundencia de pruebas. Me pregunto, los medios tradicionales: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: WikiLeaks, journalism and truth - John McQuaid - Edge of Chaos - True/Slant</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-142507</link>
		<dc:creator>WikiLeaks, journalism and truth - John McQuaid - Edge of Chaos - True/Slant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-142507</guid>
		<description>[...] this represent an emergent form of journalism? C.W. Anderson argues that it does: This captures the essence of the question I was trying to get at in the fifth point of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this represent an emergent form of journalism? C.W. Anderson argues that it does: This captures the essence of the question I was trying to get at in the fifth point of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Maly</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-142299</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Maly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-142299</guid>
		<description>The related question I&#039;d like to see asked is which type of disclosure and story leads to more change/results/whatever-you-think-journalism-is-for.

Do data stories grab the imagination in a way that leads to real discussion and grappling with the issues, or do we need individuals like McChrystal to latch on to and have opinions about?

Jay Rosen worries that stories like the 92,000 docs and the exhaustive analysis of the size of the Top Secret infrastructure are too big to impel a real reaction. I worry that too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The related question I&#8217;d like to see asked is which type of disclosure and story leads to more change/results/whatever-you-think-journalism-is-for.</p>
<p>Do data stories grab the imagination in a way that leads to real discussion and grappling with the issues, or do we need individuals like McChrystal to latch on to and have opinions about?</p>
<p>Jay Rosen worries that stories like the 92,000 docs and the exhaustive analysis of the size of the Top Secret infrastructure are too big to impel a real reaction. I worry that too.</p>
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		<title>By: Ecopolitica &#187; Wikileaks e o jornalismo: inovação e diferenciação</title>
		<link>http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/07/when-do-92000-documents-trump-an-off-the-record-dinner-a-few-more-thoughts-about-wikileaks/comment-page-1/#comment-142297</link>
		<dc:creator>Ecopolitica &#187; Wikileaks e o jornalismo: inovação e diferenciação</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.niemanlab.org/?p=20379#comment-142297</guid>
		<description>[...] Como diz, com toda razão, C.W. Anderson, pesquisador da escola de jornalismo da universidade Columbia, “descobrir algo novo pode não ser tão importante quanto encontrar um padrão em algo que já está por aí”. David Corn, chefe da sucursal de Washington do site Mother Jones diz que, de qualquer forma, o “Afeganistão foi, verdadeiramente, foi uma guerra que recebeu sub-cobertura, além de ter sido sub-discutida e sub-debatida”. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Como diz, com toda razão, C.W. Anderson, pesquisador da escola de jornalismo da universidade Columbia, “descobrir algo novo pode não ser tão importante quanto encontrar um padrão em algo que já está por aí”. David Corn, chefe da sucursal de Washington do site Mother Jones diz que, de qualquer forma, o “Afeganistão foi, verdadeiramente, foi uma guerra que recebeu sub-cobertura, além de ter sido sub-discutida e sub-debatida”. [...]</p>
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